From jeff at altair.com  Mon Oct  1 09:41:07 2007
From: jeff at altair.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:41:07 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
In-Reply-To: <57EB1C29-CBEE-4A38-AA61-70A2FAB7A449@yuhasz.org>
References: <57EB1C29-CBEE-4A38-AA61-70A2FAB7A449@yuhasz.org>
Message-ID: <FEF28C1E-D516-4A5A-9252-005BE1E81CDF@altair.com>

Steve,

None of the mass storage devices I have worked with (CFFA compact  
flash adapter - my current mass storage choice for my ///'s <grin>,  
Corvus hard drives, and First Class Peripherals Sider hard drive)  
would boot the ///.  A boot floppy has to be used to bring up BOS or  
SOS.  Once booted, the applications run off the flash memory or hard  
drives, but booting still takes a minute or two off the floppy.

The bootstrap code on the /// is very small but from what I have been  
told it is highly dependent on the first floppy drive in the ///, so  
it would need to be redirected elsewhere or rewritten.

Thanks,

Jeff

___
Jeff Marraccini
Manager, Altair Systems
Altair Engineering, Inc.
http://www.altair.com/
jeff at altair.com
+1 (248) 614-2400 ext 294

"The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia
This email message is not a digital signature and its opinions are my  
own.


On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Steve wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Thank You for the reply. This is what I had come to figure was the
> case due to the lack of it being referenced anywhere. That would be a
> nice addition to note in the Apple III FAQ.
>
> I am not sure if you know the answer to this, but it does appear that
> the Apple II Profile controller card has a boot ROM and will boot
> directly off the Profile. I am guessing that the Apple II interface
> must have been made available after the Apple III Profile controller.
>
> Also, the Lisa boots directly from a Profile, correct?
>
> So, am I correct to conclude that the Profile was designed and made
> originally available for the Apple III and then was made available to
> Apple II customers, and finally Lisa customers?
>
> Here is another interesting question. Can other newer controllers
> allow an Apple III to boot directly from an HD (ie http://dreher.net/?
> s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php) ?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Steve
>
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
>
> >
> > The short answer is - NO. The longer answer is that with BOS3 (and
> > a couple of earlier programs), you would start with your .d1 drive
> > but it immediately goes to the Profile and loads everything from
> > there.
> >
> > The longer answer is that On 3 founder Bob Consorti's folks found a
> > way to do this, but it was not something they ever cared to share
> > because they didn't want to spend the time making it work on a
> > commercial basis... our loss.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>


From pilgrimer at mac.com  Mon Oct  1 10:46:37 2007
From: pilgrimer at mac.com (Bart)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:46:37 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
In-Reply-To: <FEF28C1E-D516-4A5A-9252-005BE1E81CDF@altair.com>
References: <57EB1C29-CBEE-4A38-AA61-70A2FAB7A449@yuhasz.org>
	<FEF28C1E-D516-4A5A-9252-005BE1E81CDF@altair.com>
Message-ID: <084F3720-45B4-4976-B427-F93C0ACC41AA@mac.com>

Add Focus,  Vulcan (Black and Gold), and InnerDrive to the failure  
list.  I have tried to boot from those as well.
On Oct 1, 2007, at 6:41 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Steve,
>
> None of the mass storage devices I have worked with (CFFA compact
> flash adapter - my current mass storage choice for my ///'s <grin>,
> Corvus hard drives, and First Class Peripherals Sider hard drive)
> would boot the ///.  A boot floppy has to be used to bring up BOS or
> SOS.  Once booted, the applications run off the flash memory or hard
> drives, but booting still takes a minute or two off the floppy.
>
> The bootstrap code on the /// is very small but from what I have been
> told it is highly dependent on the first floppy drive in the ///, so
> it would need to be redirected elsewhere or rewritten.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
> ___
> Jeff Marraccini
> Manager, Altair Systems
> Altair Engineering, Inc.
> http://www.altair.com/
> jeff at altair.com
> +1 (248) 614-2400 ext 294
>
> "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia
> This email message is not a digital signature and its opinions are my
> own.
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Steve wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> Thank You for the reply. This is what I had come to figure was the
>> case due to the lack of it being referenced anywhere. That would be a
>> nice addition to note in the Apple III FAQ.
>>
>> I am not sure if you know the answer to this, but it does appear that
>> the Apple II Profile controller card has a boot ROM and will boot
>> directly off the Profile. I am guessing that the Apple II interface
>> must have been made available after the Apple III Profile controller.
>>
>> Also, the Lisa boots directly from a Profile, correct?
>>
>> So, am I correct to conclude that the Profile was designed and made
>> originally available for the Apple III and then was made available to
>> Apple II customers, and finally Lisa customers?
>>
>> Here is another interesting question. Can other newer controllers
>> allow an Apple III to boot directly from an HD (ie http:// 
>> dreher.net/?
>> s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php) ?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Sep 30, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The short answer is - NO. The longer answer is that with BOS3 (and
>>> a couple of earlier programs), you would start with your .d1 drive
>>> but it immediately goes to the Profile and loads everything from
>>> there.
>>>
>>> The longer answer is that On 3 founder Bob Consorti's folks found a
>>> way to do this, but it was not something they ever cared to share
>>> because they didn't want to spend the time making it work on a
>>> commercial basis... our loss.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

From MJMahon at aol.com  Mon Oct  1 13:59:25 2007
From: MJMahon at aol.com (MJMahon at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:59:25 EDT
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
Message-ID: <be3.1f4e64f8.34328f7d@aol.com>

This behavior depends entriely on the Apple /// boot ROM.

The boot ROM of the Apple II searches the slots for cards and gives
control to the highest numbered slot with a card containing its own
boot ROM.

Since the Apple /// has a built-in 5.25" drive in a "fixed" slot, the
author of the boot ROM may have decided not to do a slot search,
but always boot from the built-in drive.

What *does* the Apple /// boot ROM do?

-michael


In a message dated 10/1/2007 5:03:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
steve at yuhasz.org writes:

> Dave,
> 
> Thank You for the reply. This is what I had come to figure was the  
> case due to the lack of it being referenced anywhere. That would be a  
> nice addition to note in the Apple III FAQ.
> 
> I am not sure if you know the answer to this, but it does appear that  
> the Apple II Profile controller card has a boot ROM and will boot  
> directly off the Profile. I am guessing that the Apple II interface  
> must have been made available after the Apple III Profile controller.
> 
> Also, the Lisa boots directly from a Profile, correct?
> 
> So, am I correct to conclude that the Profile was designed and made  
> originally available for the Apple III and then was made available to  
> Apple II customers, and finally Lisa customers?
> 
> Here is another interesting question. Can other newer controllers  
> allow an Apple III to boot directly from an HD (ie http://dreher.net/? 
> s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php) ?
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Steve
> 
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
> 
> >
> >The short answer is - NO. The longer answer is that with BOS3 (and  
> >a couple of earlier programs), you would start with your .d1 drive  
> >but it immediately goes to the Profile and loads everything from  
> >there.
> >
> >The longer answer is that On 3 founder Bob Consorti's folks found a  
> >way to do this, but it was not something they ever cared to share  
> >because they didn't want to spend the time making it work on a  
> >commercial basis... our loss.
> >
> >Dave
> 




**************************************
 See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Mon Oct  1 16:24:09 2007
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:24:09 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
Message-ID: <200710012024.l91KOA9s016698@smtp.cybermesa.com>


MJMahon at aol.com wrote on Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 11:59 AM

> Since the Apple /// has a built-in 5.25" drive in a "fixed" slot, the
> author of the boot ROM may have decided not to do a slot search,
> but always boot from the built-in drive.
>
> What *does* the Apple /// boot ROM do?

You are correct. The Apple /// ROM starts the disk booting sequence by
reading block 0 from the built-in 5.25" floppy drive. It loads this block of
512 bytes into memory address $A000 and then transfers program control to
the first byte at this address. This block 0 program then loads the
necessary data from the disk, e.g. an Apple SOS boot disk loads the SOS
operating system from the disk and then transfers control to it.

The boot ROM contains programming specificly for the Apple 5.25" floopy,
there is no support for any other disk drive in the ROM. The ROM basically
contains the driver programming for the disk drive. To support booting from
another disk drive, e.g. a hard drive such as the Apple ProFile, you would
need to change the Apple /// ROM. Or, as others have pointed out, you would
need to create a boot disk that the /// would boot at startup and which
contains the necessary programming to boot from another device. I suspect
changing the boot ROM would be much more difficult than creating a disk to
do what you want.

Before reading the floppy disk the boot ROM tests the Apple /// hardware and
hangs if any problems are found.

The boot ROM also contains a Monitor program which allows a programmer to
interact with the ///. This Monitor is very similar to the Apple II Monitor.
I recall you hold down the Open Apple keys at startup to access the Monitor.
Apple documented its command set which is different than the Apple II
Monitor command set in the Apple /// Service Reference Manual (contact Dave
Ottalini for a digital copy of this which is part of his wonderful Apple ///
DVD). Several old Apple /// articles also discussed the /// Monitor.

The Apple /// ROM is 4 KB in size and occupies memory range $F000 to $FFFF.

If anyone wants a copy of the Apple /// ROM source I can email it. This
listing also appears in the Apple /// patent (# 4,383,296 dated 10 May 1983)
but the quality of the patent listing is very poor.

- David Craig

From steve at yuhasz.org  Mon Oct  1 20:54:10 2007
From: steve at yuhasz.org (Steve)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:54:10 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
In-Reply-To: <FEF28C1E-D516-4A5A-9252-005BE1E81CDF@altair.com>
References: <57EB1C29-CBEE-4A38-AA61-70A2FAB7A449@yuhasz.org>
	<FEF28C1E-D516-4A5A-9252-005BE1E81CDF@altair.com>
Message-ID: <E16161F9-3587-4D0F-84D8-8B4D4D816A99@yuhasz.org>

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. Very intriguing. From a historical standpoint, I  
find it incredibly interesting that the predecessors to the ///, the  
II/+, can boot off of hard drives, but yet the very expensive ///  
could not do this. What was Apple thinking? Yet another item to add  
to the list of undermining the success of this machine-especially  
considering how expensive it was at the time.

Thanks,

Steve

P.S. I'm the Detroit Area as well. So interesting to see that there  
is more than a few of us with a /// in town!


On Oct 1, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Steve,
>
> None of the mass storage devices I have worked with (CFFA compact  
> flash adapter - my current mass storage choice for my ///'s <grin>,  
> Corvus hard drives, and First Class Peripherals Sider hard drive)  
> would boot the ///.  A boot floppy has to be used to bring up BOS  
> or SOS.  Once booted, the applications run off the flash memory or  
> hard drives, but booting still takes a minute or two off the floppy.
>
> The bootstrap code on the /// is very small but from what I have  
> been told it is highly dependent on the first floppy drive in  
> the ///, so it would need to be redirected elsewhere or rewritten.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
> ___
> Jeff Marraccini
> Manager, Altair Systems
> Altair Engineering, Inc.
> http://www.altair.com/
> jeff at altair.com
> +1 (248) 614-2400 ext 294
>
> "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia
> This email message is not a digital signature and its opinions are  
> my own.
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Steve wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> Thank You for the reply. This is what I had come to figure was the
>> case due to the lack of it being referenced anywhere. That would be a
>> nice addition to note in the Apple III FAQ.
>>
>> I am not sure if you know the answer to this, but it does appear that
>> the Apple II Profile controller card has a boot ROM and will boot
>> directly off the Profile. I am guessing that the Apple II interface
>> must have been made available after the Apple III Profile controller.
>>
>> Also, the Lisa boots directly from a Profile, correct?
>>
>> So, am I correct to conclude that the Profile was designed and made
>> originally available for the Apple III and then was made available to
>> Apple II customers, and finally Lisa customers?
>>
>> Here is another interesting question. Can other newer controllers
>> allow an Apple III to boot directly from an HD (ie http:// 
>> dreher.net/?
>> s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php) ?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Sep 30, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > The short answer is - NO. The longer answer is that with BOS3 (and
>> > a couple of earlier programs), you would start with your .d1 drive
>> > but it immediately goes to the Profile and loads everything from
>> > there.
>> >
>> > The longer answer is that On 3 founder Bob Consorti's folks found a
>> > way to do this, but it was not something they ever cared to share
>> > because they didn't want to spend the time making it work on a
>> > commercial basis... our loss.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>>
>

From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Mon Oct  1 23:33:31 2007
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:33:31 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
Message-ID: <200710020333.l923XVsY009475@smtp.cybermesa.com>


Steve <steve at yuhasz.org> on Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 6:54 PM wrote:

> Thanks for the info. Very intriguing. From a historical standpoint, I
> find it incredibly interesting that the predecessors to the ///, the
> II/+, can boot off of hard drives, but yet the very expensive ///
> could not do this. What was Apple thinking? Yet another item to add
> to the list of undermining the success of this machine-especially
> considering how expensive it was at the time.

If I were Apple I would have had at least plans to support booting from
non-floppy devices. But given the short life of the /// I suspect such plans
(if they existed) would never have been given the resources to turn them
into reality.

>From a progamming perspective, writing a device driver to boot from say the
Apple ProFile hard drive would not be difficult. The boot driver could be in
the /// ROM itself, or in a ROM on a peripheral card which the boot ROM
would detect a la the Apple II periphal boot scheme.

- David Craig

From steve at yuhasz.org  Mon Oct  1 23:41:25 2007
From: steve at yuhasz.org (Steve)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 23:41:25 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
In-Reply-To: <200710020333.l923XVsY009475@smtp.cybermesa.com>
References: <200710020333.l923XVsY009475@smtp.cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <DFCF85E3-3A23-43D2-A0F0-B66257DA983A@yuhasz.org>

Yes, this why I am surprised no one sold such a board, but due to its  
relatively small acceptance, this probably makes sense. Though, on  
the other hand, with its high cost, one would think one of these  
customers would be willing to pay for such an option at some point in  
the life of the ///.

Another question. I became daring and removed the motherboard from  
my ///. Turns out it is a 256K machine, which I could tell alone from  
the label on the bottom. However, on the motherboard, there is a 2016  
battery (replaced with one from Radio Shack at some point  
apparently). Is this battery for the Clock? Since this is a 256K  
machine with what the motherboard has written as 6502B for the  
processor (although the processor ends with a "-A" written on the  
chip itself), does this mean the motherboard has one of the working  
clocks? Can I use a 2032 battery instead (also 3V)?

Thanks,

Steve

On Oct 1, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Shirl wrote:

>
> Steve <steve at yuhasz.org> on Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 6:54 PM wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info. Very intriguing. From a historical standpoint, I
>> find it incredibly interesting that the predecessors to the ///, the
>> II/+, can boot off of hard drives, but yet the very expensive ///
>> could not do this. What was Apple thinking? Yet another item to add
>> to the list of undermining the success of this machine-especially
>> considering how expensive it was at the time.
>
> If I were Apple I would have had at least plans to support booting  
> from
> non-floppy devices. But given the short life of the /// I suspect  
> such plans
> (if they existed) would never have been given the resources to turn  
> them
> into reality.
>
> From a progamming perspective, writing a device driver to boot from  
> say the
> Apple ProFile hard drive would not be difficult. The boot driver  
> could be in
> the /// ROM itself, or in a ROM on a peripheral card which the boot  
> ROM
> would detect a la the Apple II periphal boot scheme.
>
> - David Craig
>

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Mon Oct  1 23:55:59 2007
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:55:59 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?
In-Reply-To: <DFCF85E3-3A23-43D2-A0F0-B66257DA983A@yuhasz.org>
References: <200710020333.l923XVsY009475@smtp.cybermesa.com>
	<DFCF85E3-3A23-43D2-A0F0-B66257DA983A@yuhasz.org>
Message-ID: <DD7FE473A8C3C245ADA2A2FE1709D90B1C8E7A@server2003.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>

Steve,

If you are referring to the battery at G13, this is the battery for the
clock indeed. To know if the motherboard has a clock chip, look for a
58167 at B3.
If there is no chip, there is no need for the battery.

As far as I know, the 6502B (which is a 3mhz processor) has never been
used at 3mhz but only at 2Mhz, where a 6502A is just fine.

Any battery will work as long as the voltage is correct; many people
soldered wires on the motherboard and had two AA batteries in a battery
holder held by dual-sided tape by the speaker (way easier to replace).

Michel.

-----Original Message-----
From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
[mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:41 PM
To: Shirl
Cc: APPLE3-L at altair.com
Subject: Re: [Apple3-L] Can an Apple III Boot off an Apple Profile HD?

Yes, this why I am surprised no one sold such a board, but due to its  
relatively small acceptance, this probably makes sense. Though, on  
the other hand, with its high cost, one would think one of these  
customers would be willing to pay for such an option at some point in  
the life of the ///.

Another question. I became daring and removed the motherboard from  
my ///. Turns out it is a 256K machine, which I could tell alone from  
the label on the bottom. However, on the motherboard, there is a 2016  
battery (replaced with one from Radio Shack at some point  
apparently). Is this battery for the Clock? Since this is a 256K  
machine with what the motherboard has written as 6502B for the  
processor (although the processor ends with a "-A" written on the  
chip itself), does this mean the motherboard has one of the working  
clocks? Can I use a 2032 battery instead (also 3V)?

Thanks,

Steve

On Oct 1, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Shirl wrote:

>
> Steve <steve at yuhasz.org> on Mon, Oct 1, 2007, 6:54 PM wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info. Very intriguing. From a historical standpoint, I
>> find it incredibly interesting that the predecessors to the ///, the
>> II/+, can boot off of hard drives, but yet the very expensive ///
>> could not do this. What was Apple thinking? Yet another item to add
>> to the list of undermining the success of this machine-especially
>> considering how expensive it was at the time.
>
> If I were Apple I would have had at least plans to support booting  
> from
> non-floppy devices. But given the short life of the /// I suspect  
> such plans
> (if they existed) would never have been given the resources to turn  
> them
> into reality.
>
> From a progamming perspective, writing a device driver to boot from  
> say the
> Apple ProFile hard drive would not be difficult. The boot driver  
> could be in
> the /// ROM itself, or in a ROM on a peripheral card which the boot  
> ROM
> would detect a la the Apple II periphal boot scheme.
>
> - David Craig
>
_______________________________________________
Apple3-L mailing list
Apple3-L at news.altair.com
https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

From steve at yuhasz.org  Wed Oct  3 23:57:11 2007
From: steve at yuhasz.org (Steve)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:57:11 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Working Disk Image of Apple III Demo/Apple III External
	Floppy Drive
Message-ID: <5ED6F33E-0C07-4DD0-B288-C001B48780CE@yuhasz.org>

Does anyone have a working .dsk image of the Apple /// Demo disk?  
Appears that there is a bad version of this floating around that  
produces the result of "System Failure = $06", which, from what I  
have read is a copy protection issue?

Also, does anyone know of cheap Apple III External Floppy drive for  
sale? I notice there is someone out there selling an Apple /// floppy  
drive analog board. I am thinking one could just get ahold of this  
and swap out the analog board in a regular old Disk ][ and have it  
work as the same?

Thanks,

Steve


From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Thu Oct  4 00:25:47 2007
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 22:25:47 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Working Disk Image of Apple III Demo/Apple III	
	External Floppy Drive
Message-ID: <200710040425.l944PjrH025505@smtp.cybermesa.com>


Washington Apple Pi (www.wap.org) has an Apple /// DVD for sale with around
200 /// disk images which includes the /// Demo disk. This DVD has lots of
other great /// stuff, highly recommended.

- David Craig

----------
>From: Steve <steve at yuhasz.org>
>To: A3 Listserve <APPLE3-L at altair.com>
>Subject: [Apple3-L] Working Disk Image of Apple III Demo/Apple III External
Floppy Drive
>Date: Wed, Oct 3, 2007, 9:57 PM
>
> Does anyone have a working .dsk image of the Apple /// Demo disk?
> Appears that there is a bad version of this floating around that
> produces the result of "System Failure = $06", which, from what I
> have read is a copy protection issue?

